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	<title>Comments on: Google Chrome: Bad news for Adobe</title>
	<atom:link href="http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/</link>
	<description>Musings on strategic design by Kontra, a veteran design and management surgeon, perennially in search of complex problems to operate on.</description>
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		<title>By: Kontra</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-2940</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kontra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-2940</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In case you don&#039;t know, Silverlight 3 (due in a few weeks) addresses the desktop/AIR issue:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/first-look-microsoft-silverlight-3-challenges-adobe-air-216&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;First look: Microsoft Silverlight 3 challenges Adobe AIR&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case you don&#8217;t know, Silverlight 3 (due in a few weeks) addresses the desktop/AIR issue:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/first-look-microsoft-silverlight-3-challenges-adobe-air-216" rel="nofollow">First look: Microsoft Silverlight 3 challenges Adobe AIR</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: barry.b</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-2939</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[barry.b]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-2939</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[more misinformed nonsense.

Sure I&#039;ll look forward to HTML5 getting ratified and widespread with 95% of take-up with consistency of user experience like Flash does.

But to be honest the trick is authoring tools. 

To be honest, no one cares what platform/runtime it takes to produce the wrappers/delivery around apps and content, they only care how they get there. The key is the designer/developer workflow. The rest is implementation details and reach (that 95% stuff again)

One blatant point in the article is wrong: you can’t compare AIR (desktop client) to Silverlight. WPF, yes, but not Silverlight ... provided WPF is cross-platform like AIR is...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>more misinformed nonsense.</p>
<p>Sure I&#8217;ll look forward to HTML5 getting ratified and widespread with 95% of take-up with consistency of user experience like Flash does.</p>
<p>But to be honest the trick is authoring tools. </p>
<p>To be honest, no one cares what platform/runtime it takes to produce the wrappers/delivery around apps and content, they only care how they get there. The key is the designer/developer workflow. The rest is implementation details and reach (that 95% stuff again)</p>
<p>One blatant point in the article is wrong: you can’t compare AIR (desktop client) to Silverlight. WPF, yes, but not Silverlight &#8230; provided WPF is cross-platform like AIR is&#8230;</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Resurrected</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-2285</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Resurrected]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-2285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hitler&#039;s propaganda was sweet.. :) This is SF... You may want to come in touch with reality.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hitler&#8217;s propaganda was sweet.. :) This is SF&#8230; You may want to come in touch with reality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: glyf</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-1672</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[glyf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-1672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think its necessary to look at the bottom line for the players involved in this rather than making the overly simplistic assumption that each is trying to increase their stake in the &quot;online pie.&quot; 

For Google, the bottom line is online advertising, and we know that the adoption of open standards is beneficial for their business model. Hence Chrome. 

The introduction of Chrome may be bad for Microsoft, but its not clear that it is also a threat to Adobe. Adobe makes money by selling professional design software, which has little to do with the proprietary nature of the Flash runtime. 

Adobe has little to gain from trying to impose a proprietary technology on the web, especially with the introduction of Silverlight as a direct competitor. Adobe knows this - that&#039;s why they&#039;re actively opening up their technology like with the open source Flex SDK and the free compiler and are aggressively pushing actionscript in the direction of javascript through the ECMA.

Through future versions of the ECMA script, I wouldn&#039;t be surprised to see a single runtime integrated into the browser that can compile both actionscript and javascript (if there is a difference at that point.)

People may scoff at the idea that Adobe would cede proprietary control of the Flash runtime in favor of an open standards based runtime. But lets look at the bottom line - anyone who wants to can develop targeting flash player without spending a dime on software with the Flex SDK and an open source IDE like FlashDevelop. This is not hurting Adobe&#039;s ability to charge design professionals thousands of dollars for Creative Suite. Adobe would only sell more of its cash cow Creative Suite and would have a better chance of beating out Silverlight with open standards for RIA&#039;s. So, Google Chrome: Good News for Adobe.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think its necessary to look at the bottom line for the players involved in this rather than making the overly simplistic assumption that each is trying to increase their stake in the &#8220;online pie.&#8221; </p>
<p>For Google, the bottom line is online advertising, and we know that the adoption of open standards is beneficial for their business model. Hence Chrome. </p>
<p>The introduction of Chrome may be bad for Microsoft, but its not clear that it is also a threat to Adobe. Adobe makes money by selling professional design software, which has little to do with the proprietary nature of the Flash runtime. </p>
<p>Adobe has little to gain from trying to impose a proprietary technology on the web, especially with the introduction of Silverlight as a direct competitor. Adobe knows this &#8211; that&#8217;s why they&#8217;re actively opening up their technology like with the open source Flex SDK and the free compiler and are aggressively pushing actionscript in the direction of javascript through the ECMA.</p>
<p>Through future versions of the ECMA script, I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised to see a single runtime integrated into the browser that can compile both actionscript and javascript (if there is a difference at that point.)</p>
<p>People may scoff at the idea that Adobe would cede proprietary control of the Flash runtime in favor of an open standards based runtime. But lets look at the bottom line &#8211; anyone who wants to can develop targeting flash player without spending a dime on software with the Flex SDK and an open source IDE like FlashDevelop. This is not hurting Adobe&#8217;s ability to charge design professionals thousands of dollars for Creative Suite. Adobe would only sell more of its cash cow Creative Suite and would have a better chance of beating out Silverlight with open standards for RIA&#8217;s. So, Google Chrome: Good News for Adobe.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kontra</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-1365</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kontra]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-1365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Luis Alejandro Masanti : &lt;em&gt;&quot;Someone (Apple, Mozilla, Google, any company) should make a Flash/Silvertlight-replacement with SVG/JavaScript (or Ruby or anything).&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

Luis, I think that&#039;s already in play with HTML5. As I pointed out in &lt;a href=&quot;http://counternotions.com/2007/11/15/apple-runtime-answer-2/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Runtime wars (2): Apple’s answer to Flash, Silverlight and JavaFX&lt;/a&gt;, Apple and WHATWG are firmly progressing along those lines. Canvas is at the center of it. The glue language for all this, JavaScript, is getting a potent shot in the arm. The graphics layer, at the level of SVG, needs more work. And so on.

But we still need much better design/development tools to put all the pieces together, as you suggest above. Is that Adobe&#039;s calling? Perhaps. But it&#039;s really hard making money from open-source development tools. Where&#039;s Apple when you need&#039;em? :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luis Alejandro Masanti : <em>&#8220;Someone (Apple, Mozilla, Google, any company) should make a Flash/Silvertlight-replacement with SVG/JavaScript (or Ruby or anything).&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Luis, I think that&#8217;s already in play with HTML5. As I pointed out in <a href="http://counternotions.com/2007/11/15/apple-runtime-answer-2/" rel="nofollow">Runtime wars (2): Apple’s answer to Flash, Silverlight and JavaFX</a>, Apple and WHATWG are firmly progressing along those lines. Canvas is at the center of it. The glue language for all this, JavaScript, is getting a potent shot in the arm. The graphics layer, at the level of SVG, needs more work. And so on.</p>
<p>But we still need much better design/development tools to put all the pieces together, as you suggest above. Is that Adobe&#8217;s calling? Perhaps. But it&#8217;s really hard making money from open-source development tools. Where&#8217;s Apple when you need&#8217;em? :-)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Luis Alejandro Masanti</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-1364</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Luis Alejandro Masanti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-1364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Berend Schotanus: “Wouldn’t there be any opportunity for Adobe to join the ‘Apple+Mozilla+Google browser-gang’?”

IMO, the Apple+Mozilla+Google browser-gang (wonderfull term!) is going the &quot;open standards&quot; track with &quot;implementation differences&quot;: the 3 are using HTML/CSS/JavaScript and H.264/ACC/SVG... etc., etc..

Adobe could &quot;lead the market&quot; modifing their applications to make easy developing with those standards... (in part, they already did)... but they would be losing almost all the investment in Flash!

Someone (Apple, Mozilla, Google, any company) should make a Flash/Silvertlight-replacement with SVG/JavaScript (or Ruby or anything).

That&#039;s, at least IMO, the way to go.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Berend Schotanus: “Wouldn’t there be any opportunity for Adobe to join the ‘Apple+Mozilla+Google browser-gang’?”</p>
<p>IMO, the Apple+Mozilla+Google browser-gang (wonderfull term!) is going the &#8220;open standards&#8221; track with &#8220;implementation differences&#8221;: the 3 are using HTML/CSS/JavaScript and H.264/ACC/SVG&#8230; etc., etc..</p>
<p>Adobe could &#8220;lead the market&#8221; modifing their applications to make easy developing with those standards&#8230; (in part, they already did)&#8230; but they would be losing almost all the investment in Flash!</p>
<p>Someone (Apple, Mozilla, Google, any company) should make a Flash/Silvertlight-replacement with SVG/JavaScript (or Ruby or anything).</p>
<p>That&#8217;s, at least IMO, the way to go.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Deanston</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-1363</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deanston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-1363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Correction to middle of my post  - &quot;in most IT shops supporting IE as the official browser, FF is typically the unspoken alternative. Google offers more than just a platform like Flex/AIR, it already has a full range of powerful apps and APIs people use everyday working in various IDEs and integrating in various 3rd party APIs. It&#039;s the only thing I&#039;ve seen that is making a wave in Microsoft dominated IT shops that I know. &quot; - hope that makes more sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction to middle of my post  &#8211; &#8220;in most IT shops supporting IE as the official browser, FF is typically the unspoken alternative. Google offers more than just a platform like Flex/AIR, it already has a full range of powerful apps and APIs people use everyday working in various IDEs and integrating in various 3rd party APIs. It&#8217;s the only thing I&#8217;ve seen that is making a wave in Microsoft dominated IT shops that I know. &#8221; &#8211; hope that makes more sense.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Deanston</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-1362</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Deanston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-1362</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Agree with much of what Kontra said and disagree with many who mentioned alternatives to JavaScript/Chrome. The main, simplest reason Adobe will be in a losing fight in terms of web platform? The Big Two - Google and Microsoft - will never make themselves dependent on or promote Adobe platform and strategy.  I&#039;ve worked in the public and private IT sectors for more than 10 years witnessing the rise of the Internet. The move away from Sun/Java to MS/.NET from what I&#039;ve seen is only picking up steam, to the degree that I&#039;m willing to bet most State and local governments are mostly Microsoft shops now, with heavy investment that will not change for years. Adobe is not making a dent in the Microsoft platform. Those with long term career advancement in mind in general IT and not just web design all choose to learn ASP.NET instead of Flash/Flex. JSP and servlet programmers aren&#039;t going to convert to JavaFX graphic web designers, but those managers considering FOSS/Sun for medium size enterprise solutions might take a look at Flex and consider it might cut down development time and the application server cost is on a par or lower than most enterprise Java servers. ColdFusion/Flex server implements full J2EE anyway so you get two in one if you REALLY want to try out Java. Those few shops willing to go FOSS typically end up implementing web apps in PHP/MySQL instead of J2EE simply because it&#039;s cheaper and easier. Adobe is still king of desktop publishing, but it&#039;s enterprise web app platform is still playing third or forth rank, and there are too many reasons for .NET or PHP shops to not reinvest or change philosophy to move to Flex. The growth of Chrome? Anyone who&#039;s willing to download and use Firefox will to give it a try.  And in most IT shops Flex/AIR, it already has a full range of powerful apps and APIs people use everyday working in various IDEs and integrating in various 3rd party APIs. It&#039;s the only thing I&#039;ve seen that is making a wave in Microsoft dominated IT shops that I know. The best thing for Adobe is to offer their software ways to hook into non-MS platforms and portals. Proprietary runtime plug-ins will never make the main course on web content - that is the reason the Web took off and the standards bodies will keep it that way. Sure, Flash beat out Java applets, but after 10 years it&#039;s still mainly HTML that mark up the final rendered web page for most web sites. JavaScript inadequate? Despite the combined might of Sun (with Java), MSFT (with JScript/VBScript/ASP), Adobe (with Flash/CFML), and every other new scripting language trying to kill it for that last 10 years, it is still going stronger than ever. I&#039;d put my money on JavaScript sticking around for a long time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with much of what Kontra said and disagree with many who mentioned alternatives to JavaScript/Chrome. The main, simplest reason Adobe will be in a losing fight in terms of web platform? The Big Two &#8211; Google and Microsoft &#8211; will never make themselves dependent on or promote Adobe platform and strategy.  I&#8217;ve worked in the public and private IT sectors for more than 10 years witnessing the rise of the Internet. The move away from Sun/Java to MS/.NET from what I&#8217;ve seen is only picking up steam, to the degree that I&#8217;m willing to bet most State and local governments are mostly Microsoft shops now, with heavy investment that will not change for years. Adobe is not making a dent in the Microsoft platform. Those with long term career advancement in mind in general IT and not just web design all choose to learn ASP.NET instead of Flash/Flex. JSP and servlet programmers aren&#8217;t going to convert to JavaFX graphic web designers, but those managers considering FOSS/Sun for medium size enterprise solutions might take a look at Flex and consider it might cut down development time and the application server cost is on a par or lower than most enterprise Java servers. ColdFusion/Flex server implements full J2EE anyway so you get two in one if you REALLY want to try out Java. Those few shops willing to go FOSS typically end up implementing web apps in PHP/MySQL instead of J2EE simply because it&#8217;s cheaper and easier. Adobe is still king of desktop publishing, but it&#8217;s enterprise web app platform is still playing third or forth rank, and there are too many reasons for .NET or PHP shops to not reinvest or change philosophy to move to Flex. The growth of Chrome? Anyone who&#8217;s willing to download and use Firefox will to give it a try.  And in most IT shops Flex/AIR, it already has a full range of powerful apps and APIs people use everyday working in various IDEs and integrating in various 3rd party APIs. It&#8217;s the only thing I&#8217;ve seen that is making a wave in Microsoft dominated IT shops that I know. The best thing for Adobe is to offer their software ways to hook into non-MS platforms and portals. Proprietary runtime plug-ins will never make the main course on web content &#8211; that is the reason the Web took off and the standards bodies will keep it that way. Sure, Flash beat out Java applets, but after 10 years it&#8217;s still mainly HTML that mark up the final rendered web page for most web sites. JavaScript inadequate? Despite the combined might of Sun (with Java), MSFT (with JScript/VBScript/ASP), Adobe (with Flash/CFML), and every other new scripting language trying to kill it for that last 10 years, it is still going stronger than ever. I&#8217;d put my money on JavaScript sticking around for a long time.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Javascript v. Flash/Air</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-1337</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Javascript v. Flash/Air]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 14:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-1337</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] all out and garnering impressive press a lot of talk has come out suggesting that new and improved javascript engines are going to be the end of flash. With this next generation of browsers featuring impressive improvements to javascript speed and, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] all out and garnering impressive press a lot of talk has come out suggesting that new and improved javascript engines are going to be the end of flash. With this next generation of browsers featuring impressive improvements to javascript speed and, [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Chrome, Web Stantards Vs. Flash / Silverlight &#124; BeckLog: Beck Novaes&#8217; Web Log</title>
		<link>http://counternotions.com/2008/09/03/badnews/#comment-1318</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chrome, Web Stantards Vs. Flash / Silverlight &#124; BeckLog: Beck Novaes&#8217; Web Log]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://counternotions.wordpress.com/?p=305#comment-1318</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Chrome: má notícia para a Adobe. JavaScript ganha, Flash/Silverlight perdem. A Liberdade de Expressão é uma dádiva que aflora na web. Também por isto aqui estou eu para deixar o meu ponto de vista. Se por um lado é apenas mais um ponto de vista, por outro, prometo que tentarei observar a questão de outros ângulos. E ao contrário de ter as respostas que preconizam os vencedores e perdedores eu creio que eu terei muito mais perguntas. Num momento tão especulativo como este eu ficarei feliz em fazer as perguntas certas. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Chrome: má notícia para a Adobe. JavaScript ganha, Flash/Silverlight perdem. A Liberdade de Expressão é uma dádiva que aflora na web. Também por isto aqui estou eu para deixar o meu ponto de vista. Se por um lado é apenas mais um ponto de vista, por outro, prometo que tentarei observar a questão de outros ângulos. E ao contrário de ter as respostas que preconizam os vencedores e perdedores eu creio que eu terei muito mais perguntas. Num momento tão especulativo como este eu ficarei feliz em fazer as perguntas certas. [...]</p>
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